it’s not even that deep

It actually very much is

Totally agree with u as a woman

Hoe that is how society worked for the majority of history. Just cuz women have rights now doesn’t mean other things like the idea of being a gentleman has to go out the window

Yeah— if we remove the patriarchy thing for a moment, one of the most important things to living a happy life is thinking through what kind of person and mindset is required to match expectations you set. You are destined to have a poor social life if your expectations are only set based on what makes things easiest for you without understanding this. This goes for men and women and everyone in between

I can’t say how much I agree with you. In my personal opinion a lot of “gentlemen” behavior, like telling men to hold doors for women, pay for dates, making the move, is just to infantilize and discourage women to take initiative. Imo women have just the same responsibility (or lack thereof) to take action, even for something small like asking someone out

The benefits men get from a relationship are much greater than a woman and the risks a woman faces are far greater

Therefore the bare minimum and social expectation is for men to step up and make the first move as men and risk getting rejected (literally just read social cues it’s not that hard ) and if you don’t like that become homosexual or a woman

How are the benefits much greater? That is again a patriarchal construct that objectifies women as prizes— that men should be privileged to have a woman to have sex with. Yeah the risks are definitely greater. However, ironically, a lot of those risks come in to play precisely when you get with someone who engages in these rituals as they are adhering to the patriarchal constructs.

Thus, the most respectful thing a man can do to a woman in this situation (that directly takes into account that she is more at risk!) is to treat her like an equal human being instead of a prize that he should just be grateful he is in the presence of / try to ‘win’ her without even knowing her yet.

According to sociology and psychology studies… benefits are greater including men gain larger health benefits (longer lives, fewer risky behaviors), men rely more on spouse for emotional support (women tend to rely more on friendships), women disproportionately do more housework, childcare, emotional labor, marriage tends to boost men’s careers often hurting women’s careers, women’s satisfaction much more largely depends on marriage quality, and men’s lifestyles improve (structure/stability)

The concept that women should expect to not be treated as well in a relationship, that he benefits more, that in bed the man focuses more on his own pleasure than yours is literally there because you’re only considering the men who engage in patriarchal practices

YES EXACTLY what I was trying to say

You wouldn’t understand the benefits because you’ve never been married yourself you’re better off asking your father. If you don’t see the benefit then don’t ask a woman out period. Be single and lonely

And guess what? All of that is a result of patriarchy. You’re selectively choosing what things you want to keep as fact in order to ‘disprove’ me and selectively choosing what shouldn’t be the norm anymore / what isn’t ’natural’ (women historically having very limited rights).

No woman would want you anyways

Ur not understanding what they’re saying. Men need relationships to function, whereas women have been shown to thrive on their own.

Pregnancy and childbirth are biologically demanding for women, women take on physical and time costs early on (pregnancy recovery, breastfeeding) that can look like career interruptions and slower advancement when you add in childcare and men benefit from this with 0 physical costs.

Yeah don’t treat her like the prize treat her like an equal person and get to know her🤦‍♂️

Equality doesn’t cancel out being a gentleman- respect, manners, and thinking about her well-being still matter

Clearly men can’t even fathom how much they benefit from the patriarchy so the easy way to feeling less guilty is just lying and minimizing

It’s not like women stopped giving birth and doin childcare just cause of feminism in your broken logic

I agree that women face higher risks because of pregnancy or domestic abuse. But why does that mean women can’t take initiatives in their own lives to decide who they want as a partner? Isn’t it much better for us to choose for ourselves instead of waiting to be chosen?

You’ve been saying how men need to ask women out because women do more housework and go through pregnancy and overall hurts our life quality. But what about women who don’t do chores in their relationship, and people who decide to not have children, who feel like their relationship is nourishing? In that case, would the women need to ask men out? Of course I think men should respect women, but it’s not about giving men the sole responsibility to ask the other gender out.

Also #1 never said anything like that “men shouldn’t respect women”. They said that they do not support relationships that harm women (which is patriarchal), and that women should expect and strive for an equal relationship by taking action instead of being placid in “I’m disadvantaged, I’m weak, so I won’t do what men can do”. Correct me if I’m wrong

Too many em dashes to not be ChatGPT

Yeah women could pick their man of choice theres nothing wrong with that but also women want to feel chosen and lead especially when later on they carry far more of the effort, sacrifices, and responsibilities that men want to deny is my whole point many couples shift overtime in responsibilities though they may start out equal or close to that. Tbh it’s much better when couples start out as friends and see if they have shared values. This whole debate on who asks who out is inconsequential .

That was the whole argument in the first place, it’s funny how now you’re saying it’s irrelevant. I hope you find a relationship that doesn’t make you do all the effort that you don’t think is worth, where you don’t have to sacrifice your health. That is completely possible today. You can choose someone that will respect you so you won’t need to feel like he must overcompensate by doing something “gentlemanly”, on top of being respectful.

lol I really wasn’t expecting it to be this heated 😭

My point wasn’t to say that men should ask women out etc be old school I explained that relationships often aren’t as equal as they seem even in today’s world that women sacrifice a lot in childbearing and often do more emotional labor in relationships etc. that I explained my previous comment in response to the airhead that commented and started this discussion by saying “women still carry parts of the patriarchy AS LONG AS WOMEN DON’T PUT IN EFFORT”

Women often put in far more effort down the line and don’t benefit nearly as much as men do from marriages and if a woman has an expectation that she be asked out, taken out, led by man, have a man act like an old school gentleman than so be it and that’s HER expectation and standard . And HER standards so be it have NOTHING to do with you.

At the end of the day no one is OBLIGATED to ask anyone out. But saying women SHOULD or expecting mutual initiative is inherently entitled and it’s a version of the same restrictive roles that people have been trying to move beyond.

I rest my case.

I am genuinely wishing you find a relationship that doesn’t force you to make those sacrifices so you can feel freedom in asking men out, without feeling like you’re being disadvantaged. My point. Period.

My whole point is that kind of relationship isn’t that easy to find or common and the majority of relationships don’t find themselves at such an egalitarian balance you propose. And the labor and toll pregnancy take on a woman is not something a man can ever compensate for.

I left this convo for a while and have no real intention to track it all down again, but I do have to just say that “men should always lead and pamper me at first because they all end up as deadbeats anyway and won’t take on responsibilities when I’m pregnant (also assuming that this is a when and not an if?)” is such a crazy statement that it bears repeating just so I can read it again.

That’s such a stretch from what I said. I never claimed men should always lead or that women should expect to be pampered because men are irresponsible. I was talking about how pregnancy creates a unique burden, not endorsing some extreme gender dynamic that you clearly can’t shut up about.